Tuesday, December 22, 2009

Bayshore Division Divisions?

***Bumped back up due to some new knowledge that should be dropped on us soon...***

I was approached this weekend by someone who doesn't read the blog (WTF?) who had some good questions about the scheduling of our games in kickball. They had an interesting idea about creating divisions... but they're taking too long in signing up to post. So here it is... our Monday discussion:

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"Since we keep losing what used to be standard services while paying full price, we now only get to play 8 games....and we have 16 teams. So you're not going to get to play everybody and some long-standing rival games may be lost.

So, how about this:

Two 8-team Divisions.

You'd play everybody in your division one time, equaling 7 games. And then for the last game, play the team in the opposite division ranked the same as you. For example, you're in 3rd place in your division, so you would play the 3rd place team in the other division. And again, this would only be for the 8th week.

So, the end result would be a very simplified schedule making process and the two division winners playing each other (tourney style rules) for the title. No tiebreakers, no technicalities, no strength of schedule, no bullshit, no real argument.

The only question would be how to determine who goes into which division. Alphabetic? Seniority? Totally random?

When the season is over, then just combine the two divisions together under the same previous rules (wins = 1pt ties = .5 pt) to determine tourney seeding."

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I'll post up my personal thoughts on this later... but feel free to comment/suggest/bitch about any scheduling and standings issues we currently have. I'm curious as to what the league thinks of our current process.

76 comments:

Geoff said...

Interesting idea, but it still doesn't change the fact that we're getting screwed out of games

YellowBird said...

Sounds like it would definitely make scheduling easier. As long as my team was grouped with teams we've played for years already, I'd be up for it.

Nate Dawg said...

I really like the idea and yes G-off it really blows that we are getting screwed out of games. Only issue would be who gets put in which divisions. Personally I think that it should be the oldest teams in one division and the newer teams in the other (kinda like what Yella said).

MJ said...

I tried to recommend two divisions "Bay" and "Shore" a couple years ago before the All Star game and Bay would play Shore. I got shitted up and down on it.

YellowBird said...

All Star game coming back would be cool. This would also give us a way to separate the teams too. Something MJ must have suggested before. I don't remember, but I know I didn't shit on him.

Chandler said...

I'd actually like to see the two teams with the fewest Crystal Pitcher votes each season be "regulated" down to the Breaker Division... and replaced with the top two Crystal Pitcher teams from there.

That'll fix everything...

Geoff said...

Now, that's a good idea Chan!

Florian said...

Selfish reasons prohibit me from liking this idea. Being on a new team, we would never get to play any of the fun teams.

We should have some sort of system however to let teams play some rivals every year. Thinking soemwhere between 2 and 4 games you can choose to play every year and the rest would be random. This is a social league so the best way to meet the new people is to play a game against them.

Griff said...

Damn sorry about all the deletes guys...wish i could go back and edit comments!

**Updated
How about just dividing the divisions up by the final season rankings from last season?
"Bay" gets the odd numbers, "Shore" gets even numbers or something.
You're looking at:
"Bay"
-Superbad
-Shockers
-WAKAshame
-Ligers
- Yeaga
- Dollar Wells
- Your Mom (replaced with Playground Bullies?)
- Team Fab


"Shore"
- Soul Glo
- Alcoballics
- PMU
- Balls & Dolls
- No Game (Now "Off Constantly")
- TBN
- Kicktease
- NKOTB (replaced with "Newbies"?)


And then, as suggested by the original post, you play your counterpart in the other division in week 8 to determine season champ and tourny seeding.

Between those 2 divisions there's still a couple rivalries in there, and what ever traditions got left off we can save for week 9 and 10(then you can take the competitiveness out of these "fun" theme games anyways since it won't count).

This could be an opportunity to start NEW traditions with different teams. Eventually the teams/people who started these themes are going to move on from kickball ONE of these days..be it retirement, suspension, team-breakup, theme getting BANNED, etc.

Which reminds me...Our Slip 'n Slide game is gonna have to switch to a different team now with Your Mom gone....hmmmm

Griff said...

OK I just got word Your Mom has a new captain?

Florian said...

Actually, it looks like Your Mom did not have enough people sign up. Looks like a team called Camel Toes 2.0 is in the league. Assume the people on Your Mom have been placed on other teams as we got a few on our team.

Alcoballics
Balls N Dolls
Camel Toes 2.0
Kicktease
Ligers
Off Constantly
Pick Me Up
Playground Bullies
Shockers
SuperBad
Team Fabulous
THEE Beer Nuts
ToeJammers aka Soul Glo
Top Shelf
WAKAshame
Yeagabombs

Erika said...

I'm with Nate and Yellow, oldest teams in one division, that would make for some fun games and rivalries.

Florian said...

Oh yeah and Griff, I don't think there will be a week 9 and 10. There is a rainout week before the playoffs but don't think we get to use the fields unless we need to. Hopefully I am wrong and that we can at least play another game for fun if we don't have any rainouts.

Nate Dawg said...

Im sticking with what I originally said. Not my fault you left your team(s) Flo...in a couple seasons maybe the Flonettes can make their way up to the Veteran Division. AKA the Leif Nissen Division (kinda like what you did in our FF league Yella) Maybe dedicate the other division to Christine or Sid...

Griff said...

but then how do you determine who the "oldest 8" are ?

I haven't been around too long, but I can only think of (in no particular order):
Superbad
Soul Glo
Shockers?
Ligers
TBN
?
?
?

And where would these reincarnated teams fall in that (Ballics and Bullies)? Do they get grandfathered in ahead of some of these teams despite taking a year off or changing their names?

YellowBird said...

So there is a new team called Camel Toe 2.0?

Griff, WAKAShame... formerly known as 'Where My Pitches AT?' and even another name prior to that i think.

They might be in the oldest 8 teams.

Hello Kimmy said...

You can figure out who's been around the longest by checking out the Division History page on WAKA.

http://www.kickball.com/division/flbayshore/divisionhistory

I'm not sure if I remember this correctly, but I believe the Jammers were around in season one, just under a different name. Billy, Katie or maybe even Hess can confirm that. I wasn't around until season 4 or 5.

YellowBird said...

Jammers started season 2..... 11 seasons later, same name... same color.

Hello Kimmy said...

Thanks Hess. :)

Jason said...

Superbad
Soul Glo
Shockers?
Ligers
TBN
?
?
?

Top Shelf (Dollar Wells) has been around 8 or 9 seasons...I recall them beating "Old School" for a tourney championship a while back.

Also add Alcoballics to the list. Both the 'ballics and Top Shelf have been around much longer than the Shockers.

SarahB said...

NERDS!!! :)

Smithkey said...

I am not a fan of the league being divided into divisions based on seniority. I think the newer teams can learn from the older teams and the best way to do this is by playing them. This would make for a more fun league in general as well as give people the chance to meet new people.

I do like the idea of the two most unpopular teams being demoted to breaker division and being replaced by two new teams although that will never happen.

I think the scheduling committee does a great job with the schedules and making sure the classic rivalry/theme games are played every year. Because of this I think the schedule should remain how it is with the exception of getting the games back we have been screwed out of by the greedy WAKA monster.

~Marla~ said...

I think you'd have to figure out what to do about teams that have changed names or colors through out the seasons... Do they move to the bottom of the list? Is it like they were always there? If they changed names, how do you determine if its the same team?

Pick Me Up started with that name in Season 7; so that was technically before Superbad and Shockers.

I think it's a good mix to play some old and some new teams. It's a good way to meet people and play different levels and different types of games.

Griff said...

I like playing in the rivalry games and all, but it seems like the last few seasons we've had virtually the same schedule..in a league with twice as many teams as there are games in the season. I think that kinda goes against one of the major selling points of joining kickball in the first place. It's a social league, and most people join a social league to actually meet people. To me, playing the same 7-8 teams each season doesn't really accomplish that. I know there are a lot of people who have good friends on other teams (which I'm guessing is where most of these traditions and rivalries spawned from at one time), but those friendships and traditions had to start somewhere. And I bet a lot of them started on the kickball field. Playing against people/teams you don't know (yet!).
And relying on Mac's as the place to meet these other people isn't much different than going out to your local watering-hole on any given weekend with your buddies. (which for most it's Mac's anyways) At least if you play their team, you have something to get you started....Don't be affraid to meet new people! It's probably how this league got started!

Nate Dawg said...

Thee Beer Nuts have been around since season 2 also...we were drunk friends in that season and switched to beer nuts in season 3.

Chandler said...

I don't attribute all of Cleveland Browns OLD stats to the Baltimore Ravens...

so... quit changing your names. new people look at the history and think The Beer Nuts have 2 CP's.

and I don't blame them.

Rob said...

if we have a rainout week, can we just push the tournament back a week and still have an extra week to play a 9th or 10th game?

Divisions would be good to have. Corso, Herbstreit, Digger and Vitale support divisional breakouts. I like the split based on standings that way there isn't a stacked division with 7 of the top 16 teams.

Def need an all-star game brought back

Florian said...

No one does Chandler. The Browns are the Browns. That was one of the stipulations to the move. The stats stay with the city for when they got an expansion franchise (which they did a few years later). I do attribute all the Houston Oiler stats to the Tennessee Titans though since they just moved.

Chandler said...

I don't do that either.

Keep your names the same and stop f'ing up the historical record.

YellowBird said...

If we broke the league into two divisions, I'm pretty sure the divisions could be re-aligned every season as seen fit.

The reason the older teams want to play each other is because of ho long they've been doing that already. Newer teams need to earn their stripes IMO.

TyrusG said...

Rubs brought this to my attention so I will copy my email to him on here. I do agree with Smithkey and Griff on dividing the division based on seniority.

And for the record, I do plan on having a 9th and 10th game on the season (notice the gap between the last game on the posted schedule on the division webpage and the playoff date) I can just only have 8 games that show up in the standings. I've got to keep things to a certain standard but don't think that I've forgotten about you guys. I like to play kickball too.

"I am definitely open to this. We tried it once before in Season 5 I think. I actually did something like this with the schedule for Breaker last season, I didn't reflect it in the standings but I did break the division in 2 for scheduling.

Here are my main thoughts on this:

They wouldn't be called divisions since Bayshore is considered a division by WAKA. They would be called conferences, not a big deal there.

Even though there can be the 2 conferences we can have only one regular season champion for the purposes of the Founders Cup Invites. If we have 2 teams that are undefeated that can get tricky unless we have the 8th game of the season be a matchup week with 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2 etc. Only one team can be considered regular season champs so the winner of the other conference would just have bragging rights.

I saw someone comment that we should separate the teams by seniority. I have actually talked to other reps who have done this and they have found that separating the division according to competitiveness is better, with the most competitive teams in one conference and the more social teams in the other (there will also be some buffer teams that can go either way and may switch back and forth from season to season). When its done that way the teams matchup more against teams that suit their interests. It's also somewhat difficult to find true seniority in teams because you can have a team that have only a couple of original players on it but they are considered to be senior teams because some form kept coming back. Then you also have teams that accumulated veteran players (ie Team Ramrod started with a group of players from Balls Deep/Ballbarians which actually started in Season 3 or Pick Me Up which started out with a bit of a reincarnation of Old School which started in season 2). That being said there is a bit of an understood seniority that I have taken into account when it comes to t-shirt color selection.

Here is the seniority this season(with continuity):
ToeJammers - season 2
THEE Beer Nuts (originally Drunk Friendz) - season 3
Top Shelf (originally Vote for Pedro) - season 3
Ligers - season 4
Yeagabombs (originally Recess Rebels) - season 4
Off Constantly (originally Team Ramrod) - season 5
Shockers (originally Screaming Seaguls) - season 5
WAKAshame (originally Shake N Bake) - season 6
Pick Me Up - season 7
Superbad (originally TBE Enginerds) - season 7
Balls N Dolls - season 9
Team Fabulous - season 9
Alcoballics - season 11 after 1 season hiatus (originally Ballbusters - season 3)
Kicktease - season 11
Playground Bullies - season 12 after 2 season hiatus (originally Balls to the Wall - season 5)
Camel Toes 2.0 - season 12

More Competitive:
ToeJammers
Balls N Dolls
Playground Bullies
Shockers

Middle:
Alcoballics
Superbad
Yeagabombs

?:
Camel Toes 2.0

More Social:
Team Fabulous
THEE Beer Nuts
Off Constantly
Top Shelf
Ligers
WAKAshame
Pick Me Up
Kicktease

It would take a little bit of tweaking with the standings program but its definitely doable. Obviously there are a few details to work out.

If a majority of the captains and the board are in favor of it we can definitely make it happen."

Of course more social may be better described as less competitive.

Chandler said...

Ty...

The season starts on Feb 11th.

8 weeks later... the season ends on April 1st.

The playoffs are on April 10th.

There's only 1 Thursday in that "gap"... so where is week 10?

This is why it has been assumed its an 8 week schedule (which we know is dictated by WAKA)... and a 9th game which will probably be used as a rain-out.

TyrusG said...

You know what... that's my mistake. I'll have a new playoff date to you soon.

Florian said...

Sweet, there will be a week 9 and 10. Guess I shouldn't assume things. My bad.

Jack said...

Is this new knowledge just the updated playoff dates that will actually be confirmed and not fake knowledge as has been "dropped" previously on this site?

I like the conference idea as well. Do it like the SEC where you play everyone in your conference and rotating games against the other conference, and you have one traditional rival from the other conference that's permanent. That's all assuming Ty works in the preferred 10-game schedule, too. The last week as a championship match between the two conference champs seems like a great idea, too.

YellowBird said...

"More Competitive:
ToeJammers
Balls N Dolls
Playground Bullies
Shockers

Middle:
Alcoballics
Superbad
Yeagabombs"

These two should be combined. All of these are competitive teams. Some just aren't fun to play.

TyrusG said...

They will be combined, that was just a quick categorization but the conferences would be 8 and 8

YellowBird said...

Well, I don't want to lose rivalries with Ligers and Beer Nuts.

We actually have a trophy made specifically for the Beer Nuts game.

Nate Dawg said...

However its done really doesnt matter to me...I would like to keep games with the TJ'ers and Ligers if possible. We already lost the Your Mom's Nuts game due to Your Mom not coming back. I like the way that Ty set it up.

Griff said...

I don't know if dividing it up by competitive and social really fits in the Tampa divisions of WAKA. Thought we already did that with Breaker and Bayshore. Playing JUST the competitive teams each week on Thursdays doesn't seem to add any more value than just signing up for Tuesday nights...at least there the competitive rules are more closely followed.....again..if people were looking to play serious kickball all the time.

Splitting them by rank at least gets you a mix of competitive and social teams, still allows for some of the traditions/theme games, and you still have week 9 and 10 for any matchups you missed out on. And each season the schedule will change for the most part, cause the rankings won't always be the exact same. I think that 2-week buffer at the end could really sell this idea. All-star game would be pretty cool in one of those extra weeks too..those "select few" get to choose playing a (most likely) highly competitive game, or decline their invite and play a social game with their regular just for fun. Now choosing people who MAKE IT to the all-star teams would be a whole different issue itself...

TyrusG said...

I find the idea that the Breaker Division is the more competitive division to be really funny actually. With the exception of just a couple of teams, the majority of the Breaker division is very social.

In fact there have been a couple of players who have played in both and told me that they actually preferred Breaker because Bayshore was too serious. I guess it all depends on which teams you are exposed to. I know Alicia came out a couple of seasons ago to check out the playoffs but that's the playoffs when most teams tend to be a little more competitive.

It's probably more of just a situation which division your friends play in and which one is filled with strangers.

I agree that the rivalries can easily play out in the extra weeks.

YellowBird said...

I think this works better. Better mix of "competitive" and older rivalries.

New teams should automatically go in the "social" conf.

ToeJammers - 11th season
THEE Beer Nuts - 10th season
Alcoballics
Ligers - 9th season
Balls N Dolls
Shockers
Superbad
Ybombs

Playground Bullies
Pick Me Up
Camel Toes 2.0
Kicktease
Team Fab
WAKAshame
Top Shelf
Off Constantly

TyrusG said...

I think the Playground Bullies are definitely going to be a competitive team and will want to play toejammers, bnd, yeagabombs, superbad, etc.

One of the complaints I've heard from players is that there are teams they haven't played in several seasons. Part of the reason for that is the rivalries that "have" to take place every season. It might be time to mix things up a little bit and let teams play other teams that they don't usually play.

Geoff said...

I think the entire league should just play against me and a miniature Ditka. Geoff and tiny Mike win by ten!

Chandler said...

This blog has no "fake" knowledge. People just change their minds once they realize we're on to them...

And the Playground Bullies will try to be competitive... but will fail to win the championship this season. Mark it down.

I'm actually all for randomizing the "conferences." Use week 8 to play your equivalent in the other conference. Week 9 and 10 (if they even happen depending on rain-outs) would be "pick your opponent" week.

And I'm really for you people not changing your names every damn season.

YellowBird said...

Ty, that would just be switching the complaints. The result would be people asking why are we not playing our friends the Beer Nuts and Ligers?

YellowBird said...

Does that mean there will be a week 9 and 10?

TyrusG said...

yes, that has been the intention all along but I can only have 8 weeks count in the standings.

Geoff said...

For the ligers there will be a weak 9 and a weak 10

RÜBS said...

well first i should say i love all my rivalry games. and while just a few years ago we had 2 or 3, TBN, Ligers, Your Mom rivalry games i feel that time has given us a schedule full of rivalries, BND, Yeaga, Superbad, Shockers, Balics. if that continues to grow and it will we wont have a schedule long enough to accommadate all our wants. people seem to hate change and evolution but it is time. the comp list while makes sense does take away the root of why we play kickball, being social. and yes, that is my main reason too so i vote against that. from there dropping a few "comp" teams to fill in more "social" teams leaves too much subjectivity. so why not odd and even number rank from the previous season? no subjectivity and it leaves movement based team turn over, etc. we can have the bragging rights from conferance to conferance and matched seeded games for the out right winner in week 9.

what are the limits? a 4-3 conferance team beating a 7-0 conferance team, probable but not likely. two 7-1 teams but we go to that stats for that. im sure there may be more but given our history, the scenerios are proable not likely to occur.

Chandler said...

haha. good point.

Put the Ligers in the slacker division!!!

why not divide the teams up based on hot chicks? that'll really piss people off. and be more entertaining for the rest of us.

Florian said...

Would you do this on the binary scale Chandler or the normal 1-10 scale? Also, who would judge?

Chandler said...

I only work in the Binary Scale.

I will Facebook stalk at least one picture of every girl in the league (Ty needs to give me the roster). I'll then create 16 team pages with a picture collage of all the females and host it on my own personal website. Finally, I'll create a survey and send it out to all the guys in the league who want to vote. Each guy gives each girl one vote... a 1 or a 0. Those numbers obviously represent: "would you" or "would you not" put your P in her V.

Total score wins. Obviously some teams have more chicks than others. Good for them... they have a better chance of getting a higher score.

This would NOT be anonymous, as we must ensure nobody votes more than once. Plus we can then run a whole fuck-load of matrix statistics to match up what teams dudes really want to bone what teams girls.

Top 8 scoring teams go into the "1 Conference." Bottom 8 in the "0 Conference."

Ty... let me know when this plan is approved. Thanks in advance.

Florian said...

I think this idea is the best one yet. How many guys would actually step up and vote since its not anonymous though?

Chandler said...

I wouldn't necessarily release the names of those who voted or their actual votes. I just need to know them since I'd tally everything.

I might say... "7 of 13 dudes on Top Shelf voted... and they really love the girls on the Shockers..."

something like that.

Geoff said...

Don't worry Flo, we don't need your vote we'll just give them all an extra point automatically and save you the trouble.

Geoff said...

What about the bi-curious chicks? Do they get to vote? Would Yella be allow to vote for Rollo?

Chandler said...

bi-curious people make it complicated. so to uphold the sanctity of Bayshore hook-ups... we'll just use the traditional dudes voting on chicks this first season. once all the sites are built we can easily add other layers.

Florian said...

Even I would give a few of them 0's Geoff. I do have standards. lol

YellowBird said...

I totally wouldn't put my P in Rollo's V.

YellowBird said...

Rollo's mouth might be a different story though.

Ryan said...

Anonymous...Schmonymous. I'd take it. And here a few things I'd want to glean from this matrix.

1. Pregnant girls/Sarah/Boom?
"Right.. who's gonna wanna stick that." - K. Powers

2. Who wouldn't Flo vote for?

3. Which team just wants to fuck? Example "11 out of 11 Liger Cubs would do all 18 Alcoballic Girls & Duc with long hair"

SarahB said...

WTF

TyrusG said...

I smell law suit

Chandler said...

yeah we might need some legal advise to sort out the whole "pictures posted on the web are in Public Domain" thing.

but still. I fully expect WAKA to run a feature on us in their Kickball Today newsletter.

~Marla~ said...

I think the most unbiased way to do the conferences is random or by last season's standings. That way it changes each season, and you have the opportunity most likely to play teams that you've always played with your friends on it as well as new teams to meet new people. You also don't have to worry about difference of opinions about competiviness or the name changes season over season.

Hello Kimmy said...

No matter what you do it, someone is going to be upset. Random does make sense. You could pull team names out of a hat or something at the meet and greet... make it a ceremonial thing, like the way they picked the teams for the FIFA World cup. hahaha.

Ryan said...

Cow Crap Bingo

Cow Crap Bingo - Video

Can you just imagine how tense it would be if the cow was standing on Balls N Dolls Sqaure?

Plus we can add gambling and raise money for charity.




And Drink.

Florian said...

We can just have all of them sign a waiver Chandler. I'm sure we can everyone on board.

Sort of like the permission slips in elementary school you had to have your parents sign when you went on a field trip. I'm sure that will cover all liabilities.

Nate Dawg said...

Chandler I love it and I would not be scared to vote...

Rob said...

Chandler - awesome idea on the voting.

Cow Patty Bingo is hilarious also.

Def love the idea to make a ceremony like FIFA for picking the conferences. Like we need another excuse to go to macdintons

Chandler said...

Yeah I think Kimmy has a winner. Why not draw names out of a hat, and post the teams up on two big boards as they are selected.

a la: World Cup groups or Kentucky Derby positions

We can gamble on that too.

And since the back room we use at MacD's is now bathrooms... we can incorporate taking a dump just like the cow thing.

~Marla~ said...

I also like the allstar game. We've done this before, and it was a lot of fun. We could have a male and female nominated from each team. Then seperate the teams by conference or standings, depending on when we do it. So, it'd be 8 girls and 8 guys per team.

E-FLO said...

Picking the names out of a hat and posting them on a big board, say, at the Captain's meeting would do wonders for attendance...BTW, this has been one of the more interesting strings...

bull said...

Names + Hat = Winner

Allstars + Game = Also a winner

Pics + Votes = Democracy in action and really what's not to love about that

That is all.

RÜBS said...

thats great bull but we are all socialist now